A Week at Christian Retreat

[cwb2007]

I've just returned home from weeklong Christian retreat. It was a nationwide youth conference for a specific denomination of Protestant Christianity. Some things about it were really fun and I got to meet a lot of really nice people, yet I could not help but gain a growing sense of annoyance at the large number of logical misgivings that were being promoted. Aside from the most obvious that Cal has pointed out many different times that worship should be directed at Father not Jesus, there was also several other leaps in logic that were being promoted:


1. That we should regard others as better than ourselves- My response was that we are all equal in the fact that we are children of Father and that we are all loved by Father but that it is very obvious to see that there are people who commit acts and live their lives in ways that are either good or bad.

2. Their concept of charity- There concept of charity is to create a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen so that the homeless may eat and sleep. My concept of charity would be to create a shelter where the homeless can eat and sleep but on the condition that they A. Take part in running the shelter and B. Are required to learn a vocation or skill while there so that they may get a job and learn to feed themselves.

3. That we as people have no right to judge others- My response was that we have very much license to judge the actions of others. Though we may not be able to judge the spirit of an individual accurately(One of the exceptions would be Cal) that it is simple common sense to determine whether someone indulges in poor or good behaviors.

4. That you can not take pride in accomplishments- This one ticked me off the most. The idea that because we are imperfect and that Father is perfect that nothing we do can meet his expectations or please him.

5. The obsession with sin and brokeness- We all sin and have sined. Obvious yes and of our own choosing. Father in his grace has extended his forginess to any who are repentent and seek self improvement. However they seem to be stuck on the former and care little about the latter. In almost every prayer that was said there was an admission of sin but there seemed to be little focus on what they were actually going to do to change it.

6. The disbelief in ownership. I heard it stated more than once that since Father created everthing we have no claim to ownership on anything in our possession, either in money or material goods and thus we should be willing to share our goods with those in need. At this point I was ready to pop the guy in the mouth as I very much do not like the bible being used to support the communist mannifesto.

7. That all sin is equal before God's eyes- To this I got somewhat angry and came back with the response: You cant tell me that a guy shooting a child in the head is the same as a guy telling his wife that she doesn't look fat in her new dress" (At that point I was feeling half angry half sarcastic)

Needless to say that I dropped a few jaws when I actually pointed out these obvious fallacies in logic. It also suprised some that rather than trying to twist passages in the bible to say what I wanted it to say, I simply said I dissagree. Judging from the lack of reasonable argument that they had in being able to dispute any of the which I've said, it seemed pretty clear that they had never actually thought through these beliefs and were simply regurgetating what they've been taught.

I wouldn't have lasted 24 hours before they'd have invited me to leave.
Edit- I meant to finish the last sentence with: if I had stated all of my thoughts at the time.

[Caligastia Lanonandek]

Chris

Clearly your evolutionary moment has moved closer to Father while those you describe will remain stuck at their current position. Regardless, while the dogma and (THE DEMANDED FAITH) poorly interpreted, Christianity has also done a great deal of good. The greatest success was in passing forward the first person teachings of Jesus supported by the invention of the Guttenberg printing press and then the willingness to produce a literate population (so we wouldn't have to depend upon a priest or minister to read it for us).

Perspective and tolerance is required and it serves no good purpose to try and do battle with these people or even to inform them. They don't want to hear it. Never the less, many have found their way to ascendancy via Christianity. It is a rare minister that wants to be informed and I can count the ones I've encountered on 1 finger.

To quote the Father. We teach by example. Be that which is right and good - and some may take notice.

[cwb2007]

Oh believe me if I didn't think Christianity did a good deal I wouldn't be involved with the church. I just get annoyed when Christians or people with faith refuse to examine or use reason on their beliefs. Now obviously this pattern does not cover all Christians. My view is that Christianity has brought a lot of people to a much higher evolutionary moment than they would have been otherwise, but at the same time a lot of people get stuck in their dogmas and cant move past the religion's imperfections and flaws.


After being there and then breaking out of that type of mentality(to a lesser degree) it just frustrates me to see others still stuck there. Its like I want to shake them and scream "You could be so much happier if you let go all this artifical guilt and self-loathing". But you're right wasted energy.

[Parn]

4. That you can not take pride in accomplishments- This one ticked me off the most. The idea that because we are imperfect and that Father is perfect that nothing we do can meet his expectations or please him.

I sure as heck am going to take pride in accomplishments I've been working towards. If I can't do that, why bother in the first place?

Did they also bring up the idea of "respecting authority" because "God put it/them in place" and apply it to governments, and then equate rebellion to "witchcraft" because "Satan invented rebellion" like I have heard more times than I'd have liked to? THAT is what irks me most of what I've heard in terms of illogical teachings.

That said, I'm not ragging on ALL pastors/ministers. There is one I know of in particular with an open mind on things and has denounced, using scripture as written at that, a number of inadequacies poffered by a majority of Christians, and I would be more than happy to drop in and hear one of his sermons if I were in his area on a Sunday morning. Funny thing is at one time he mentioned he once had a self-proclaimed "satanist" friend who, ironically, acted more christ-like towards others than a lot of christians he had come across.

[ophello]

I think some of these so-called christians you associated with would do well to observe the definition of "indoctrination".

[tish]

"We Need To Believe? No, We Just Need To Be.
Belief has nothing to do with Truth. There is danger in Belief: it makes you feel that you know the TRUTH. And because you feel that you know the Truth, this becomes the greatest barrier to the search. Believe or disbelieve and you are blocked.

The Catholic believes in GOD, the communist believes in NO-god. Both are believers, it is all the same. Both have settled, without taking tyhe trouble to go and discover it, the deeper their belief, the stronger, the greater the barrier. They will live surrounded by their own illusion, self created, self sustained.

The society would like you to believe, because believers are good, obedient, law abiding people. They simple follow the crowd, like sheep.

The believer tries to adjust truth to himself, the seeker adjust himself to TRUTH.

Even when truth is told to you, don't believe it! Explore, inquire, search, experiment, experience.

But how to attain to truth? It is not a question of belief, but a question of meditativeness. And what is mediation? Meditation is emptying your mind completly of all belief, ideology, concept, and thoughts (good luck with this one).

Only in an empty mind, truth reflects. That reflection is a benediction. Becoming is the disease of the Soul. Being is You.

And to discover your being is the beginning of Life."

OSHO

Many many years ago a church teacher I had made the statement "there is nothing good or bad except thinking makes it so" This pops into my head when there is something that I find right or wrong in my fellow mans thinking. So much of what we think we know is just a form of conditioning. When we look at why we think as we do, we are able to see how the way we think isn't us at all, just our conditioning or training or schooling by the people, place, times we are in....

My truth searching, I will say, didn't start until at age 42 I was once again asked to leave my church. Seems I didn't have the right attitude according to those who knew the truth. And it has led me to some of the most interesting places and people. So thank goodness for those that know it all and have no tolerance for folks like me.

tish

[Adam]

The believer tries to adjust truth to himself, the seeker adjust himself to TRUTH.

RIGHT - AFTER THE PROOF OF A TRUTH - is given then its up to the individual to choose.

Example - believe me when I tell you that the apple in my hand will fall to the ground.

You Tish already know the REASON, why this action will happen. The reason a seeker of truth values proof is to gain perspective, and make the best possible choice.

A believer can give belief to a true (proven) personality (The Father) of us all as an example.

[stephen]

Fact, logic and reason are never inconsistent with the truth. They are the surest route to the arrival thereof.

Belief can put you on the fast track to the delusion highway.

When someone asks for belief...demand proof.

[Caligastia Lanonandek]

Anything that is TRUE can be proven by virtue of logic, reason or fact. Holmesian logic serves well in most cases. Once you have removed the obvious, that which remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

Beliefs make no such demand for a proving. Yet, a belief resulting from a proving is a 'fact'.

[joefarar]

I really enjoyed reading everyone's comments on this thread.

Like a lot of people, I made a few New Year's Resolutions. I won't give you the complete list but I'll tell you 2 of them:

1. Don't BS others
2. Especially, don't BS yourself

But what do my New Yr’s Resolutions have to do with the truth and Chris’ comments?:

Sometimes, I think the biggest disservice we do is we lie to ourselves. When people are comfortable, they get scared of change, it's no surprise. It's even scarier when one worries about what other people think of them, and as a result, they let other people condition how they act, feel, believe, think, etc...

I cannot count the times I have lied to myself in this life; where I was not honest with myself or others because I was scared. And yet, the whole underlying fears I had were rooted in my own assumptions that I was going to be judged one way or another and the truth is, I really didn't have to care what other people thought of me (I’m still learning this). It is a scary thing to sometimes really think for yourself; it’s a lot easier to let other people do the thinking for you because you want to trust their experiences and judgment over your own. After all, a child typically relies on their parents before they rely on themselves.

I think Chris is on the path to truth because he is thinking independently for himself. Chris, your experience has taught you that a lot of the things said at that retreat were "not true." What’s perhaps more interesting is that you observed you had a hard time convincing people of your views just as much as they may have had convincing you of theirs. They may lack the experiences you have had so it is difficult for them to understand where you are coming from.

What I think is important to take out of an experience like this is that a lot of the people at this retreat came here to share their ideas, their friendship, and their love of God. Seeing the “good” in these people, “the ascendancy” “if-you-will,” I think, should be the main focus. Bob is right; you can’t change these people by lecturing them.

I believe when you focus on the positive points of what you share in common rather than your differences, you may find that you have more in common with others than you once thought. You might even be able to change a few hearts and minds (they might even be able to change yours too). I think this is what made Jesus such a successful teacher. He “listened” to people who had differing ideas and learned from them just as much as he shared his own ideas and people learned from him too.

Like Chris, I am slowly starting to become my own authority and I think a lot of the people reading this right now are on the same path. This is what being honest with yourself and others is all about. This is when you link experience with confidence, not arrogance, and you can discern what is really true and what is not true.

Personally, I never knew how liberating and powerful being honest was, especially when it is practiced it in full sincerity (I don’t think you can do it any other way). I’m not ashamed anymore to admit how I feel, accept and admit my limitations, admit my errors, and stand up with conviction for what I believe is right, even when I’m a little scared to do so. I don’t have to hide in the shadows, I don’t have any secrets, and I don’t have to pretend. Being more honest with myself and others (and I am still working on this by the way) has not pushed me away from liberty; it has actually made me freer. When I was scared, I actually thought I was liberated, but, I was more enslaved than I could possibly know. I think a lot of the people at that Christian Retreat are scared and they don’t even know it. It can be scary to put on someone else’s shoes because sometimes the shoe size doesn’t fit and that can be painful. I think that’s important to understand. In fact, I think we’re all still a bit scared, ourselves, and that’s all right to admit too; we’re still learning by experiencing new things all the time (no one here is perfect). We might have more in common with the people at that Christian Retreat than we’d care to admit, even if we might be ahead in the journey. Personally, I have yet to cross paths (knowingly) with a human being who is truly fearless, and, if I ever did, that human being was delusional, mentally ill, or on drugs. Needless to say, it takes one to know one.

Interesting experience you had, thank you for sharing it.